Arthur Lydiard - Training
Running In General
Topic
The value of "junk miles"
Topic Started: 5/6/2009  By: HRE
Since it's been sort of dead here and since I've been meaning to post this for a while, here are some comments about the importance of easy running, aka "junk miles" from Steve Magness' web site.


Take it Easy:
There is a large debate in endurance training circles about easy or “junk” mileage. Does it do anything? How much easy running should be done? Does easy running actually make us better?

Those are just some of the questions that could be asked in regards to what exactly easy running does. Ask almost any (non-coach) Physiologists and he’ll tell you that intensity is the way to go. These physiology guys LOVE intensity. They all have their particular best intensity, whether it’s training at VO2max or Lactate Threshold. But almost all of them will tell you that running so many miles per week is stupid and that easy runs will only do so much.

Okay, so I’m making a vast generalization, but it holds some truth. I could give many examples of guys with PHD’s who write about the latest speed workout that improved performance by 10000%. It kind of makes me cringe. In fact, in my research for my presentation on Kenyan runners for class I came across a quote in a pretty good review article that said:

““The dominance of African runners in the last 2 decades may provide valuable insight into the training process. Their training appears to be relatively uncomplicated. In essence, intensity is emphasized over volume.”
“In contrast, in the author’s opinion, training in western countries appears to be guided by a ‘more is better’ philosophy which necessitates limiting intensity.”

It made me cringe. He went on to speculate that this intensity over volume emphasis was one reason why African’s were better at distance running. He’s not the only one. There are many others, and they do this despite the fact that there is evidence smacking them in the face to the contrary. Most science types won’t accept anything not published in a journal article, so much of the “anecdotal” evidence is dismissed. But even evidence from Scientific Studies, like one from Billat, et al., show that African’s train at high volumes (avg. between 160-175km per week leading up to a track season.).

But there is hope. A couple somewhat recent studies have come out that help show the importance of easy running. Both were done in Spain on relatively well trained distance runners (in one, performances ranged from about 30-34min for 10k I think).
The original study set out to quantify a group of runners training for two CC races using HR. They split training into 3 HR zones and recorded their HR during all training for 6 months. The 3 zones essentially came down to easy running, threshold type running, and interval/speed type running. It’s more complicated but that makes it easy to think about the training. At the end of the study 75% of the training was done in zone 1, 21% in zone 2, and 8% in zone 3.
The surprising thing was that the ONLY thing that significantly correlated with how an athlete performed was the amount of training done in zone 1. So, the more training in zone 1 an athlete did, the better he tended to perform.

This was obviously surprising since you’d expect that the amount of training in the faster zones would correlate to race improvement since they were racing over 4.1km and 10k. So, they did another study to figure things out.

In the 2nd study, they took a group of runners and split them into two even groups. One group did had a zone distribution 80%, 10%, 10%. While the other had a distribution of 65%, 25%, and 10%. They made sure the training load (calculated based on HR, essentially it is volume X intensity) was equal in both groups. Basically, the 1st group did more easy and steady running, while the 2nd group did more tempo work.
What happened? Both groups improved. That’s good. BUT, the group with more easy running improved even more so. In fact, they improved a statistically significant amount more.
So, what does all of that mean? EASY running, including junk mileage, has a place! It works.
Comments
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/7/2009 09:50AM By: Sleath A
Interestingly i was running with a few mates the other day
and asked the question what are junk miles?To me there arent any after reading and learning more about Lydiardism.
I am currently training high mileage as we do in South Africa for our annual 56mile race.For the past 8weeks most of my runs have been at 8-9mile pace and lots of some 30mile runs,yet ran a 5mile about a week ago in 27min30(5min30mile pace)After seeing the article on Seko that should change a lot of peoples perspective.It is the variation of your pace that is what i find crictical
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/7/2009 02:06PM By: Bob Wildes
I'm a big believer in "junk miles" as you know HRE.

I think that extremely successful runners that don't seem to do high mileage tend to be guys like Derek Turnbull who as a sheep farmer may have had the most strenuous job of any of his master competitors. Even he had a period of hitting 100 miles a week for a spell in preparation for at least one of his competitions.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/7/2009 03:03PM By: danimal
I also believe that junk miles (although this term may do injustice to easy running) have an important place in any program. I think that many runners have problems running fast at the end of the season because they begin to drastically cut the amount of slower running that they put in. Oftentimes, it seems that this causes runners to feel lethargic when it is time to run their best. My minimal experience has been that these miles actually aid in recovery from racing and harder training sessions, so they actually may be more important towards the end of the season (when many programs begin more intense training). If you cut these slower runs then you are not recovering properly and of course you are going to feel like crap. This was my experience running in college as well. Every year, we would drop our miles down to around 40/week when it was time to "peak." I always ran okay at the conference and regional meet, but I never had the race I knew that I was capable of and never ran faster than the beginning-middle of the season. My senior year, we kept the miles right around 60 and I ran about a minute faster than I ever ran at Regionals before and placed 25 places higher than any other year. I guess you could argue that many other factors could have been at play, but I think the amount of easy running had a lot to do with it.

Thanks for posting this HRE. Magness also has some good stuff on his site, which I had never visited.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/7/2009 11:01PM By: HRE
Steve posts a lot of his training on his site. I sometimes think he might do well to follow some of the implications of that posting on junk miles.
I think that's an awful term but it's become so common that we all know what it means.
I just got finished reading a piece about Jim Alder, Commonwealth Games marathon gold medal in 1966 among other things. He says that he did a lot of easy miles. He mentions once checking his pulse after a 20 mile run and finding it at about 110 bpm. He goes on to say that even in his day a lot of coaches referred to that sort of running as "junk mileage" and had no use for it. Then he says, "But they never produced any champion caliber marathon runners, did they?" He goes on to say that it was getting to 100-110 mpw that got him to international level and that it was getting to 140 mpw that made him an international champion but that if he'd kept to just 60-70 mpw he reckons he'd only have been a county level runner.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/7/2009 11:21PM By: Simon_M
Yes, I've drunk the Kool-Aid too! I'm running at a much slower pace than I would normally do in the interests of building a "proper" base for the first time since... well, forever.

This was stimulated by Lorraine Moller but only finally begun at the STRONG suggestion of Keith Livingstone, was inspired by Nobby's Seko material, then adapted after reading Phil Maffetone (and meeting one of his athletes.

Maffetone's writings encouraged me to take my HR down even lower than I thought I needed to go - and has the best explanations I've read of why this is important (he has a book called Training for Endurance, and his classic article on the topic is here:
http://www.rrca.org/resources/articles/slowdown.html)

This is only my second consistent week in and I find myself about to top 60 miles, which is astounding for me, as I was previously struggling to get to 50 and usually topped out at about 40. More to the point, it's been enjoyable and hasn't felt like a stress.

The most difficult part is keeping the discipline to run easy and not to push into the semi-anaerobic zone to see how things are going. I've got a hilly 15-mile loop that I'm doing regularly; I've run it 3 times at the same average HR (which is quite challenging to do!) and the time has already come down 8 minutes...

that tells me that this kind of running, as advertised, stimulates some massive kind of adaptation and pretty damn quickly.

Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/11/2009 06:59AM By: APM
Reading Toby Tanser's book detailing Kenyan training programmes "More Fire", & reading extracts from the training of leading Kenyan runners published by renowned coach Renato Canova, it is clear that many have misrepresented the way that the Kenyans actually train.

Most of their "quality" running is at or just slower than racing pace (i.e. high end aerobic). Only a small percentage (less than 5%) is faster than racing pace, & up to 60% of their running is described as "regenerative" (i.e. what might be called junk miles)

I like the term "regenerative" as it helps to explain the value of this additional training/mileage i.e. that it helps recovery (& builds capacity!) to enable further "quality" work to be done.

In many ways, the exercise physiologists have hijacked this concept of "quality", & defined it to mean "anaerobic". Anaerobic is anaerobic full stop. It is only "quality" if used in a balanced way, & at the right time, as per the Lydiard system.

To me "quality" means the right kind of training, & for endurance athletes (3K & above) that means a balanced programme, where substantial amounts of time is spent running relatively easily.

Alan.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/11/2009 02:42PM By: HRE
I like your line about "quality" getting hijacked to mean "anaerobic." I recall reading something OWen Anderson had written in "Peak Running Performance" several years ago where he was explaining that the reason the Kenyans were so good was becuase they did "low volume, high quality training."
This was an article where he was telling readers what he'd learned while touring Kenya and the camps their runners trained in. In the same article he described the daily routine. It consisted of an easy 10km run at 6 AM, another 10km at 10:00 AM followed by intervals or hill repeats, then a moderately pace 15km at 5 or 6 PM.
That worked out to about 40km per day and maybe 5 of those kilometers were "high quality." But I suspect the significance of the other thirty some kilometers never registered on him or seemed worthy of comment.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/12/2009 04:49AM By: APM
Another factor to consider with regards to East African runners (by comparison to Western runners) is the level of aerobic conditioning that they naturally experienced in childhood. This is what allows Kenyan athletes etc. to spend so much time training at high end aerobic paces.

It would appear that what you will tend NOT to find in their training schedules is three anaerobic track sessions per week.

In addition, for those Kenyan runners training three times per day, two of those sessions may be allocated to "regenerative" running.

Basically, what it boils down to is that the sports scientists create this division between "quantity" & "quality". The division should be between "quality training practices" & "bad training practices".

For me, training practices that always emphasise year round anaerobic work & low training volumes fall into the latter category.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/12/2009 04:36PM By: AKtrail
Thanks for referring to Magness blog. I used to follow his old site occasionally, but apparently missed the link where he moved to a blog.

It's interesting the different perspectives and terminology.

Maybe among Magness' circles, "junk" and "easy" have been equated, but among many online groups, "junk" generally refers to an inappropriate workout - the recovery run done too hard, the extra miles to meet a volume goal but then the quality suffers, etc. - like others have called "poor training."

What I also found interesting was the percentage of higher effort runs, esp. since this was 6 months of training, not just a few months prepping. And if you're talking 30-34 min 10k, it's considerably faster than an average recreational runner - or even a fast one where I live. I'm curious if that pct in the 2nd study - 20% non-easy in one case and 35% in the other - is typical of higher-end training schedules? (that is a question based on my ignorance) I'm used to seeing guidelines more like 10% near LT and above, maybe as high as 20%, but only the faster runners. (I'm generally closer to 5% in the sub-LT zone and above, but I'm mostly interested in longer distances - slow, but keep moving for hours.)

I was looking at Joe Friel's Total Heart Rate Training book again last night since he has some conceptual training load balances by HR zones across the various duration races. Granted, he's into endurance events like ultras and IM, so "< 3hr" was the shortest category he had. Even in that, the high end workouts were probably 10% or less of total volume. (He doesn't give actual percentages, just conceptual bar graph distributions.) As one gets into longer duration races (3-8 hr, and over 8 hr - because the races are long, not because the people are slow like me), the suggested relative distributions change.

What I'd be curious about is if the study that Magness referred to decreased the high end stuff below 20%, say to 10-15%, would the racers still do better? or is the optimum for this caliber racer with their training background near 20%? (note all the qualifiers) Do some elite racers typically train with 35% high end workouts? (That's more typical of what I'd expect in a beginner's 3 day/wk training depending on xt for the easy stuff.) I'm just curious since it's a level I'm not around, but it seems imbalanced.

Sometimes the miles in Daniels' no-man's-lands are referred to as junk miles, but they may be key efforts in other programs, esp. for races beyond marathon length. High-end aerobic can play a signficant role in improving cardio and is very different from recovery or easy runs. (I differentiate these two since the sole purpose of recovery runs is recovery whereas easy runs can have a cardio component.)
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/12/2009 04:40PM By: AKtrail
One thing I wanted to add on low HR training since someone brought it up. A lot of the success of that may depend on your actual max HR vs the age-based formulae that Maffetone's stuff is based on (I've got one of his earlier books, but not more recent ones).

For a new, but older runner (say mid 50s) who has been active (not "trained" but not a couch potato), the HR that Maff suggested as a max was about 15bpm below where I could run, let alone comfortably run. When I tried doing low HR stuff (it was icy anyway so not that much traction), rather than my normal easy runs, I felt like I lost fitness - both aerobically and strengthwise since he's against hills, strength work, etc when in base. It took me a long time to recover from that and get back to normal.

Over the next couple years, volume, more hills, more hard hills, etc, my HR at which I can run has dropped significantly so that I can now run easily below the recommended Maff hr, although I don't train that way other than recovery runs. And it seems to drop the most after the hard hills. IOW, improved economy was probably needed more so than just a lot of slogging. Walking to keep HR low wasn't doing anything for my running.

For me, the low-HR training seemed like "junk" miles since they were well below easy at the time. My present "recovery" runs tend to be close to what Maf suggests, but they are close to the bottom range of what most tables (like Martin and Coe) suggest as lowest efforts where there are cardio benefits.

But there are many for which low-HR training works. For many, it's not much different than regular HR training, depending upon how the zones end up. But for others, like myself, they're night and day different.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/12/2009 08:54PM By: danimal
This is turning out to be a great thread. I will try to keep myself from ruining it.

I have read Nobby write again and again that Lydiard did a great job of getting his athletes to know the purpose behind a workout. I think that the heart rate monitor can be a great tool if it helps the athlete or coach accomplish the purpose of the workout. However, I think that the heart rate monitor often hinders people from this because they blindly follow numbers. They use a formula to determine their best aerobic heart rate, recovery heart rate, etc. and then they run workouts according to the numbers.

I think the formula is great, but I think it needs to be checked as well by one's experience (Nobby has alluded to this as well, I believe). Use the formula and determine your zones, but afterwards wear it and try running at an honest "regenerative" or "recovery" pace. Run at a pace that you could imagine running at for hours. Pay attention and notice how high your heart rate climbs and as long as you were honest with yourself, you now have a vantage point that you can use to understand if you are taking your recovery days too hard in the future. Sometimes it will align with the formula and sometimes it won't. I think this can be an important tool in many collegiate and even high school programs where many runners "race" their recovery runs.

Sometimes the athletes I coach notice that the formula aligns perfectly, while others have seen it vary by as many as 30 beats. This is especially a problem when the formula gives them a number that is too high! Think how fast they will get injured or burn out.

One more sidenote: I remember talking to Coach Vigil at a conference and he mentioned that heart rate monitors become innacurate during harder running because elevated levels of blood lactate cause the monitor to function poorly or improperly or something... I am not sure how true that was, but it sparked my interest nonetheless.

I wrote that very quickly and without proofreading because I am out for my own recovery run, so I hope that it is not painful to wade through.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/13/2009 01:26AM By: AKtrail
danimal, Just a couple comments / questions.

"However, I think that the heart rate monitor often hinders people from this because they blindly follow numbers."
People that have been in online groups, like RW, for very long have usually figured this out, and the weekly thread started by a newbie "I can't run at this HR" is usually met with several replies and links to avoid using the formulas. Here's one of the better articles that I like: http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/Robergs2.pdf

"Sometimes the athletes I coach notice that the formula aligns perfectly, while others have seen it vary by as many as 30 beats. This is especially a problem when the formula gives them a number that is too high! Think how fast they will get injured or burn out."
Just curious as to what age group you find the formula aligns fairly well - or is across the board. I'm just going by online posts, but many seem to have their max HR underestimated by the formula - usually in older runners. The common formula assumes 1 bpm decline with age, but some formulas assume a slower decline. An active adult may retain the same max HR for many years, it seems - although how accurate the estimates are may be questioned.

"One more sidenote: I remember talking to Coach Vigil at a conference and he mentioned that heart rate monitors become innacurate during harder running because elevated levels of blood lactate cause the monitor to function poorly or improperly or something... I am not sure how true that was, but it sparked my interest nonetheless."
Most books I've had on HR training suggest not using HRM on workouts above LT because the body takes a while to respond and the gadget is slower. So you definitely can train using the numbers, although the downloaded numbers can be useful, if viewed in context.

This is particularly noticeable on something like 1-min repeats. At least for me on 30-60sec hills (and to some extent on 3-min hills), the hrm reads higher on the recovery part (downhill) than on the uphill. (but I can rarely get much above LT = 0 anaerobic capacity ;) ) Some of that might be an artifact of recording frequency, esp. if it is 15-sec, but I have done it with more frequent readings.

This is why I learned early to run by feel / breathing so I didn't end up gasping for air partway up a hill because my hrm said I was still below LT.

Didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion to HR training.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/13/2009 03:31PM By: Bob Wildes
I ran with a heart rate monitor for over a year.
As a general rule I wore it for recording purposes,
but did not try to keep my heart rate below certain
rates like Maffetone suggests.

Vigil's idea makes sense to me as I often got readings
over 200 during extremely hard effort days and I was
in my mid fifties at the time.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/13/2009 09:00PM By: Simon_M
I've given up on HR zones as they never seemed to fit. However, paradoxically, I've found Maffetone's apparently simplistic formula (180-age) to be of great practical use to kep me under control as I start to build a base.

In Maffetone's system you can add or subtract 5 beats for various reasons, so I don;t panic if I dip 5 or more beats over. Also bear in mind that heat and dehydration (among others, but these are the two biggies) can push up even your "easy" HR by as much as 10 beats. Dehydrayton will also exaggerate "cardiac drift", where you start off with a low HR but it just keeps climbing.

Stier in the fact that monitors do NOT react instananeously, even on steady runs. They always lag behind what is really going on, as AKtrail has noticed when he hits a downhill. If you are running at 125, for instance, and you hit a slight slope and your HR goes to 130, you can pretty much assume that by the time you've noticed your "real" HR it is on the way to, or already at 135 or more. So it's pointless to use 'em in anaerobic work, except afterwards to see averages and maximums.

So I use a monitor, but I don't let it totally run my runs. I know I'm running at an easy aerobic pace if I can breathe comfortably through my nose - depending on the day this correlates to an HR of anything between 110 and 130-ish, so you really do still have to train by feel.

Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/14/2009 10:47AM By: HRE
Bob,

I've gotten recent HR readings, done with a watch, not a monitor, of well over 200. Of course you're older than I am so maybe mine are more likely to be accurate (inside joke at work here.) It's entirely possible that my readings were incorrect but that leaves us with a dilemma; if a monitor doesn't read high rates accurately and our fingers and a watch don't read them accurately what do we have left?
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/14/2009 12:26PM By: Bob Wildes
Rich,

At one time I thought about having a lab test for
VO2 and max heart rate. I'm close to Georgia State
University and Georgia Tech. Both places probably
have a set up for this.

I haven't followed through because of my far from elite
status and advanced age. Anyone older than you Rich, is definitely finished with their 'salad days'.

I've read in more than one place that at least 20% of the population are outliers when it comes to the 220 minus age formula and strongly suspect I am one of them.

That said, I am not convinced that I have a 205 max HR despite getting that reading several times with the Garmin.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/14/2009 04:09PM By: AKtrail
My experience with hrm (both Polar and Garmin) is that they're usually reasonably accurate (aside from lag times) unless you're near some electrical disturbance (powerlines, maybe something in a gym) or bad contacts. I've verified the bad numbers with manual count or if I'm breathing easily and it hits 220, esp. near beginning, I can almost always assume it's bad contact.

I think the problem arises with workouts above LT, like near VO2max or whatever, since they are usually relatively short and the lag problem makes them useless for real-time data.

For active people, I think the assumption of dropping 1 bpm/yr is way too rapid. That's why I *think* that older, active people are likely to have max HR above that predicted - at least that's consistent with online discussions, my only source of info. I believe the std dev on that formula is something like 20bpm.

In my case (will be 62 in a month), I've been using 180bpm for about 7-8 yrs, although it might have been a slight underestimate earlier and slight overestimate now. The training zones fit really well, although I'm finding it harder to achieve some of the same rates this year (but we're still winter-summer transitioning). Lower max HR or needing to work harder for same HR as I've adapated to training? My LT is near 160: 150s are comfortably hard, with 158-160 being more like "hard", and things near 162 and above are closer to gasping. I could (last year) get to high 170s at end of short races or in group plyo workouts (lots of jumps going around in a circle - don't get run over by people behind you). IN the 170s, I feel light headed and almost start seeing stars.;) so I think I'm close to max there.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/19/2009 10:27AM By: danimal
AK Trail,

"Just curious as to what age group you find the formula aligns fairly well - or is across the board. I'm just going by online posts, but many seem to have their max HR underestimated by the formula - usually in older runners. The common formula assumes 1 bpm decline with age, but some formulas assume a slower decline. An active adult may retain the same max HR for many years, it seems - although how accurate the estimates are may be questioned."

I only work with 18-21 year old runners. I think that it goes both ways, but I think it is more common in the 18-21 age group for the formula to overestimate the max hr of the athlete. There was one guy that had been using the age formula before I met him and he had been trying to reach 170 or something in threshold workouts. The problem is that his threshold was actually much closer to 160, so he was almost running all out based on the formula. You will notice that his heart rate aligns fairly well with yours, even though he is much younger.
There were a few other cases like this on the team, but there were only 1 or 2 which had the formula underestimating their heart rate. Maybe the formula more often underestimates for older runners and overestimates for younger runners.

I think another way of approaching the situation is to run a 5k race or 10k race. Then take your race time and plug it into Daniels or Mcmillan tables and then get on the track and run at their prescribed threshold pace (assuming good conditions) while monitoring heart rate. If you see that the heart rate seems to be fairly consistent on a couple of these workouts, then you can continue to go by this heart rate on other workouts. You will see your pace slowly improve while the heart rate remains within the same range. I like this way much better because the age formula always seems to be off at least 2 or 3 beats. Eventually, the runner will probably get the feel of what this effort should be like and then the heart rate monitor may no longer be necessary.

It would be much easier if this generation could simply "run by feel" without devices like the heart rate monitor. However, it is part of the culture now to crave instant gratification, so they will run faster than you tell them because they know it makes them faster in the short term. Sometimes, not always, the heart rate monitor is helpful in this atmosphere.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 5/19/2009 04:40PM By: AKtrail
danimal,

"I only work with 18-21 year old runners."

Thanks. That fits my assumptions.


"It would be much easier if this generation could simply "run by feel" without devices like the heart rate monitor."

Agreed, but I'd also include pace calculators in there. I was fortunate in that while I "learned" with a hrm, one of the training aspects was to learn to estimate your hr then check it. So I learned fairly quickly how to run by feel. And the hills kept me honest because of the delayed hrm response. My body signaled me way (like 3-5 seconds at least) before the hrm caught up. Not to mention hazards of tripping over roots while trying to see hrm in dusk or dark. I still log all my runs with hrm, since I like to play with numbers - AFTER the run - and track volume / intensity to look for trends in training issues. (Polar's software does this nicely.)

I run mostly hilly trails, so calculators don't work well unless on similar terrain.


Here's an interesting article that someone pointed out yesterday that shows that lab tests underestimate max HR in trained runners (like NCAA D2).
http://www.jssm.org/vol7/n4/5/v7n4-5abst.php
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 6/12/2009 08:28PM By: Ned
Having taken my mileage up to 80 per week earlier this year (used to be 60-65) I was wondering how it would pan out. Especially with still needing to get faster for my target marathon time. Very quickly, it was the recovery run(s) each week which enabled this, what I would previously have termed junk miles, i.e. just trying to hit my week target.

So following my weekly long run of 22 miles, the next day would often be what I call a sight seeing run. Ignore the watch, and spend more time just looking around at the scenery and relax. Sometimes even walking for a km.

The following day would be ready to hit a very enjoyable threshold run.

My view is that these very easy jogs are extremely powerful in that even at very low intensity, its about moving more higly oxygenated blood through the muscles and in particular out to tendons etc which enable the flushing away of exercise toxins etc.

This approach let me back up a long run of 22 miles on a Tuesday with a second long hard run of 18 miles in the weekend.

The close attention to under speed recovery runs meant a steady build up, no injuries and also a little mental boost of refreshing the mind as well as body through the weekly training cycle. Previously I would have done most of my runs close to a similar average pace. Now there are more peaks and troughs but the overall improvement is continuing at a better rate than last year.

Overall result was a 15min marathon p.b. to 2.57 and never thought I could enjoy running a marathon as much as I did that one.

For anyone still working up to this point, I guess my message would be to not doubt that running slower than you think you should can work real benefits as recovery runs and will become the key linkages between your steady pace and quality sessions.

Cheers
Hamish
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 6/13/2009 09:27AM By: HRE
Nice going.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 6/16/2009 02:23PM By: Bob Wildes
Did you run that recent marathon in the Northern Hemisphere?
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 6/17/2009 03:17AM By: Ned
Hi there,

This was Rotorua marathon just been (New Zealand). Last year was Hasting marathon in August (previous p.b. of 3.12), followed by 2 1/2 marathons (one a p.b. of about 3.5 minutes). Was a bit sore after that (probably should have only picked one of the half marathons in hindsight) so just focussed on a steady build up in the new year to Rotorua.

Cheers
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 6/17/2009 10:32AM By: Bob Wildes
Just read an old Sports Illustrated Article
about the 1972 Fukuoka Marathon. Three Kiwis
were there in hopes of running a 2:16 or below.

It cost a lot to get there and only one, Jack
Foster, was getting any assistance from the NZ
Running Officialdom. Frank Shorter asked them
why they were willing to spend so much money and
one answered that all the NZ Marathons were hilly
and Fukuoka gave them a much better shot at meeting
the standard.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 6/17/2009 05:13PM By: HRE
New Zealand is a country where their team to the World XC Championship is self funded.
Re: The value of "junk miles"
Posted: 6/19/2009 04:54PM By: rotokiwi
Hey Ned, I am based in Rotorua. You ran through my feed station at 28k in that Marathon. Only too happy to help.


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